I'm not a goth, but this stuff is still neato.

[scottobear]

ideas garnered by talking to my sweetheart, and reading today.

adipocere (wet & dry)
cadaverine
putresine

stages of decomposition
Cooling, Rigor Mortis, Post Mortem Lividity, Putrefaction(yucka), Adipocere, Mummification, Maceration, Vitreous potassium

"incorruptable saints" - "iceman", peat bog mummies

modern civilization likely has been possible partly because of adipocere- it is theorized that a significant portion of the world's petroleum owes as it's source, the soapy, waxy, cheeselike substance. (oil, coal, natural gas.... thanks, corpses!)

Things you can make with waxy fluid remains -

Soap, candles, sealing wax, media for artwork, lubricating grease for axles.. (offshot to - lip gloss, floor wax, car polish, wood polish... )

Comments

[blackhellkat.livejournal.com]

Learned this in my DNA class...seminal fluid contains putrescine....umm anyway.

Yep the three things that CAN (what happens really varies on the condition of the human at death and the environment)happen to the body directly after death.....

Algor Mortis (which all dry humored pathologist I know love to call Al Gore mortis oh HAHA)- Whcih is the body cooling--this is why they take the body's temp to help determine time of death.

Livor Mortis is a reddish discolration on the skin where the blood pools into the tissue and is not carried away by the blood vessels because the heart isn't pumping.....which mean if you die on the toilet seat your are gonna have a giant red ring on your ass (I know I've seen pictures *shudder*)

and of course you know what rigor mortis is...but not all bodies get rigor...it depends on the temperature.....well a lot of what happens to the body after death depends on the environment which is why forensic investigators make careful notes about the body's surrounding.....including taking samples of bug colonies.


Putrefication is really just the body digesting itself....and honestly yeah its gross....but how cool is it that if left to decompse we become a lil' ecosystem after death then liquify and feed the soil....how cool is that (um this enthusiam is how I knew I wanted to get my master's in forensic science hehehehe)

Funny thing about soap and adipocere the process of the body forming adipocere is called saponification (that sounded a bit like soap to me which is how I remembered what saponification was on my pathology exam)

K I'll stop now hehehehe.....but its rare to find someone who isn't freaked by a discussion of what happens after the body dies....I personally think the process (if we are talking about natural death) is beautiful....like changing seasons.

Re:

[scottobear.livejournal.com]

I think it's fascinating on all sorts of levels... any time you want to educate me on the finer points of the life cycle and rates of decay in a body, just let me know! So, how long does it take a body to liquify, anyway?

don't tell my gf about the seminal fluid, though. :-)

Re:

[blackhellkat.livejournal.com]

Hmmm I'll hafta look up the liquification time....I'm sure there is an average under "normal circumstances".

Yeah when our instructor announce that lil' factoid about seminal fluid and putrescine all the women in class (and the class was mostly women) had an "Aha" look on their faces....it was funny.

I shoulda posted this earlier but the George Washington Forensic Sciences department was featured on FOX TV tonight....there was a show on DNA evidence....probably focusing on the Boston Strangler case. They filmed in my department and I think my least favorite prof got interviewed.....you probably woulda dug the show....next time I know my department is on TV I'll post it (and it'll be on lots cause this reviewing of the Boston Strangler case is is a hot filler news story these days)

[sweetalyssm.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh, I have a million questions for you!!

Re:

[scottobear.livejournal.com]

Yeah, both of us do!!

Re:

[blackhellkat.livejournal.com]

OK fire away!

[sweetalyssm.livejournal.com]

1. When they (um..bodies) are in an advanced state of decay, how do you get them on a stretcher? Piecemeal? spatula?

2. What about the smell? Once when I was a kid, I smelled a dead cat from 50 feet away. It was awful. I can't imagine having something so rank and foul-smelling so close. How do forensics/coroner folks deal with that smell?

3. After looking at bodies, how do you eat steak again? I ask because everytime I see beef jerky at 7-11, I think of mummies that I've seen on the Discovery Channel.

4. What about the creepy crawlies on...advanced-state bodies? Do you get rid of them, or do you ship the body with creepy crawlies intact?

5. What about the burial of the body? When they're all messed up and decayed, I suppose the best thing to do is cremate, right?

6. Do you have to look at lots of bodies in Calvert County?

Um, that's all I can think of for now..

[blackhellkat.livejournal.com]

OK I'm gonna do my best to answer your questions. I've only been a student in forensic science so far...not really hands on. Most of my hands on experience is in archaeology where I've only encountered human remains that were skeletonized (thank goodness!).

1. Well I think when there is a body that is really in bad shape the crime scene techs and whoever else is on scene do the best they can to recover as much of the body as they can and put it into body bags all the while being very mindful of trying to preserve any evidence that may be around the body. They usually wear rubber gloves and manually move the body parts into a body bag (yuck huh?). What amazes me are the investigators that can find human parts when there has been a very truamatic event....like a bomb...that has just decimated the body. I studied some stats from a bombing in the mid-east on recovery of bodies at the bomb site...in some of cases where the individual was directly next to the bomb on about 16 pounds of human tissue was recovered! But um yeah its messy and there are cases where not all the parts are recovered.

2 & 3. I have no clue how they deal with the smell! This is probably why I'm wussing out and going to law school! hehehee I've seen some Medical Examiner folk use vicks vaporub to kill the smell....but honestly I don't there is a way to get around the smell where you have a body that is decomposing. One of my profs who worked with the FBI told me about a Medical Examiner that ate a sandwich in front of him while looking at a body...probably a tall tale....but still medical examiners are tough cookies I'm sure.

While I was taking my forensic pathology class and getting to see crime scene photos every week I had a kinda bet running with a group of friends....we had to go have a hot dog from a street vendor after class....anyone who couldn't stomach it had to buy...I must say I'm much less squeamish now than I was 2 years ago!

4. Creepy crawlies woohoo! They actually are very helpful in determining the time of death. This is a whole speciality in the forensic science field... Forensic entomolgy site Hopefully in the case of a body where time of death is a major question bugs found around the body are collected very carefully. Entomologist try to determine how many generations of certain species there have been feeding off the body (they use weather information to determine the bugs gestation time) and from that these bug guys can get a really good estimate as to time of death....its freaking fascinating! IN some cases they can even get human DNA from the bugs feeding off the body when there isn't a good source of DNA from the actual body! I've even read about some rape cases where they have used body lice to pinpoint the DNA of the attacker! But check out the site....cause I've only just skimmed the surface in studying this subject myself.

[blackhellkat.livejournal.com]

OK had to continue....I was being mighty verbose!

5. I think once the medical exmainer is done with the body its up to the family what method of burial they use. Interesting fact in the case of a questioned death cremation is a touchy subject....it usually involves the medical examiners permission....simply because they don't wanna destroy any evidence that may have been missed. Exhuming the body in the future may be needed so usually they are buried. In some cases cremation can be used to hide foul play so burial is probably the best option...but in the end I'm sure its the family that decides....of course if the family is very anxious to cremate that would probably make investigators VERY curious!

6. I've only looked at one body in Calvert and that's because he drowned and was pulled out of the bay by the police righ ton our dock. Right now I don't work in any capacity where I would have the opportunity to come into contact with crime scenes. Usually it takes quite a while before someone is ready for Crime scene investigation...its not a hands-on field for beginners(like archaeology where volunteering can get you a chance to dig some pretty cool sites) simply because if you are building a case for foul play of any sort you want the collecting of evidence to hold up in court under the scrutiny of a defense attorney. So I have a ways to go....my education in the field is probably going to be used more for looking at cases from a different angle whle working in the legal profession. I was going to try and pursue a PhD in Forensic Anthro (because I really love working with skeletal remains) but I had a very frank discussion with a couple of sucessful forenisc anthropologists and I decided that it wasn't for me...lots of competition in the field and at present there is only ONE or TWO full time permanently hired forensic anthropolgist in the country! ACK! After taking some law classes I decided I really dug that field so that's what I'm going to futher specialize in....but there is a myriad of specializations under the umbrella of forensic sciences....bio, DNA, toxicology. psychology you name it.

Hehehe did I talk your ear off yet? If you want a cool book to read on forensic cases written by a medical examiner...Unnatural Death:Confessions of a medical Examiner by Michael Baden (he's the medical exmainer that does that HBO show Autopsy) would make some awesome summer reading! He talks about a lot of high profile cases...Kennedy, Simpson (he was actually hired by Simpson defense)

[scottobear.livejournal.com]

x0x00x0x0x